posted on 11/27/98 to 12/03/98
>I dont agree Blackfeather real experience leaves you with more knowledge
>or skills than mere illusion can ever do
I think we're still tangled in the semantics of what is "real" experience. You seem to consider only physical experience to count as "real;" okay, you're a big girl, that's fine. I don't, and Rick doesn't seem to either. This is what we're butting heads over, I think. Why is it that you consider "illusory" (as you call it) experience to have no value, or at least not to be as valuable as "real" experiences? I think they are just as valuable because all transformation must start from within, in the spirit or mind.
>problems in illusion dousnt allow you to face the realitys or the
>consequences, if you imagine what a confruntation with your boss would
>be like, you go in expecting that it will go the way it did in that
>daydream,, it never douse,
We're not talking about mere fantasy or daydream, here. At least, I'm not. I was thinking in terms of Otherworld experiences, along the lines of shamanic journeying. We could also think about visualization, I mean heavy-duty stuff, which is of course one of the main components of exercising magick. I don't know your thoughts on shamanic journeys, but you've spoken about magick time and again as being mainly a mind thing. That's real, isn't it? And of course can produce "real" results.
>I wish it were that simple but as long as their are people in your life,
>your choices have to be made with not only you in mind but them as well,
Yes, they SHOULD, but in terms of pure free will, nothing HAS to be. If there are certain things you want, then it's only by logical consequences that you HAVE to make that choice. It is completely impossible to force anyone to make any choice; you can present conditions such that their ego or whatever will want to narrow the choice, but will is free. I'm really not sure how to explain this; my humanities class a couple years ago didn't get it either.
>So choosing a path that is sustainable is much less stressfull
No argument, though you still did have to make the choice.
>To some extent we are forced to act civilly , if we didnt we wouldnt get
>any cooperation from anyone
Again, this is a circumstantial "forcing." If you want x, you must do y. It's not pure force against the will; that's impossible.
>Whether or not these experiences are useful to them is what
>counts. Any other set of images used as a starting point may or may not
>be as ficticious. It really doesn't matter if the person learned
All symbol-systems are just languages for the universe to talk to you in anyway, and it hardly cares which you choose. I think all systems are valid as long as they are resonalby consistent (and it's not that inconsistency per se makes them invalid, but it seems to me it would tend towards ineffectiveness).
> but when its over you have to leave that
> persona behind, much as a actor would, its fun, but its not real.
> I have never personaly brought a character home with me, but thoughly
> enjoyed playing the part in a game.
It can be as real as you make it to be - that's what I mean. By your words, I do "bring the character home with me," and that's where things have started happening. It's kind of like dealing with humans - treat them like people and they'll generally do the same for you; treat them like they don't matter and they will you. I treat fiction like it matters, and it starts to actually matter. *shrug*
> I love books and fiction, its a great escape, but I know that it is
> fiction and not reality,
> but I dont ever
> confuse fiction with fact.
*sigh* I'm not getting through, I guess... you have to let it take on some reality. Of course if you say "it's not real, it doesn't matter" then it will not be real and won't matter. Skeptics will not get results this way.
> Dealing with people is on the whole fairly easy,
[snip some stuff about getting along with people]
er? I give up. What does this have to do with anything?
> For me confusing fiction with fact is not sensible, If I want to use
> magick I do have to know which is which.
And for me, it's not "confusion" but almost an act of magick in itself, to give the fiction some fact and work with it to deal in consensual reality (vs. my personal reality). I don't think my magick is any the worse for having a part-fiction basis at times. Isn't everything fiction anyway? It's all a question of what grid you look at things through, and not only are grids arbitrary, but the Reality (tm) behind them couldn't care less which you use. (Principia Discordia, anyone?)
> personality there are limits to how much you can change your personality
> and still be you,
er... no there aren't. You are always you, no matter what changes you make. But that's not really what I'm talking about here.
> All paths to spirituality are valid, and important, but it is also
> important not to confuse the two, magick is magick
I'm not even talking about magick with this stuff about fiction having potential. I'm just talking about the validity of fantasy and the importance of non-physical experience.
> Is your magick is only meant to work in fantasy Blackfeather or do you
> want it , and need it to work in this reality, to affect change in
> accordance with will.
And yet above you said that if it works for me, fine? Again, I'm not talking about magick. But to discuss this - why should its inspiration, its basis, limit it to working in that realm? Something rooted in fantasy can't affect "reality"? Look, I'm a wonderer, a believer, a dreamer of dreams, and that's what I'm doing here. This silly stuff about getting practical results through magick in this way is not really the grand purpose I'm trying to fulfill by being this wacky fantasy-based pagan fae witchwiccan Discordian.
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