posted on alt.pagan, 11/25/98-12/03/98
> answered that, its because you thought that such experiences are real,
> that becoming a god is all about having sacrifices made to you, or
> killing your worshipers if they dont please you.
I don't think he thinks that at all; those are just some of the examples he gave. And I agree with him; the subjective experience is real, he can feel it, remember it, etc., even though it may not have visible physical effects. It borders on weird quantum phenomena, but essentially, things don't exist (or may as well not) until they are perceived or measured in some way (what's more, that measuring changes the subject of the measurement, but that's not particularly relevant here). Thus one's experience is all one really knows; all else is hearsay. (It may be prudent to treat the hearsay as if it were true; it will certainly help you get around in this world, but you still don't "know" it.)
> If we all could do what we choose to do, it would make life a lot
We do all do what we choose to do. There is no other possibility. We aren't all able to do what we would LIKE to do, but everything we do, we do because we chose to do it, because we decided to instead of decided not to. Again, even things that one perceives as "having" to be done are still only done by conscious choice. You may not see the alternatives or may ignore them; you still made the choice.
> but we do have to take other people into consideration, if we
> treat people as if they are worthless, then we will not get their trust
> or cooperation, life would be very difficult indeed, we need others to
> farm food, to bring the food to the shops,
[snip] All true. Again, this looks like we're being "forced" to act civilly because of these needs; however it's still a choice: gee, I want these things, therefore I choose to act in ways that will get them.
> and walking in
> the shoes of a god, or entity, is taking things far to far.
Why do you say this? I think some of this hinges on what he consider "gods" to be and where they come from. Some say gods are simply extremely advanced beings, similar in basic concept to ourselves, that is the beings inhabiting these bodies, but much older, wiser, having grown more, whatever. Others say that both we and the gods are emanations of a single force or energy, again essentially the same thing, albeit perhaps with a size (?) or power difference. Then there are ideas about the gods being self-manifest, and humans on a totally different keel from that. I think it depends how separate you want to consider humans (or rather, just souls, since I personally think that on earth alone everything is an incarnated soul, but anyway) from the gods. I don't think anything is absolute. I admit I have a very strange worldview sometimes.
>it helps if some of those experiences are in the real world, their are
> two many people who spend their lives already ,living in a world that
> dousnt exist, and pretending to themselves its realer than real life,
> mostly because real life is far more difficult, their is no replay
> button, or happy endings in real life
The Otherworld is often really not a nice place! And just for a counter example, many (dare I say most?) native tribes in the Amazon, if not elsewhere, consider that "other" world to BE the Real World, and this world to be the one that is merely illusion. (There's some parallels here with Buddhist ideas about maya, but I won't go into that.) I too personally think that world is just as real as this one. It depends what you, both on ego level and soul level, are trying to do whether it is "better" to be in that world or this one.
>Magick is not about living life as you choose, you still have to deal
> with the reality of earning a living, dealing with people on a one to
> one basis, bringing up children, sorting out everyday problems, magick
> helps you get through your life easier it dousnt however solve all your
> problems, its not a wish machine,
But it does involve conscious choice. You choose to deal with those things rather than run away from them. One might perceive that they "have" to do such things, but really, it's because they don't want to consider or incur the consequences of the alternatives. It's still conscious choice.
> That is your take on the matter not mine Rick, I dont consider myself
> abouve human, or able to be a god.
Personally, I think everyone is able to be a god. This seems to be a highly subjective matter, however, and I would really like to avoid nasty argument about it. You don't think so, I think so, Rick apparently thinks so, let's leave it there...
> But is your idea of magick any better, is pretending your a god or a
> farmer helping you to learn and study to improve your talents,
I imagine it must be doing something for him, or he wouldn't be doing it. Lessons received in a "non-ordinary" manner can be just as powerful as the ones obtained by the obvious method of Plain Hard Work.
>> no more than game players who act the part of trolls,
>> or elves, or vampires, are realy such beings, its simply acting.
>> its fun, and its entertaining, but its not real.
>They experience something. That's what I'm talking about. With some
>training they could experience it more fully than the average gamer.
>That's what I'm talking about.
I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and reveal a bit of my strange psyche... I am one of these aforementioned gamers, and the game I have played most is Vampire: the Masquerade. Without going into details enough that the "uninitiated" will be able to understand anything I'm saying, there is the insane clan of vampires - the Malkavians - and throughout is the theme of the madness simply being the result (or side effect, or appearance to "normal" people) of being blessed with true sight, that is, truly seeing the Universe for what it is. OKay. Now the founder of this clan, logically enough, is a dude named Malkav. The idea of Malkav and Malkavians has become quite a powerful image for me, (insert allusion to Jung here), and despite its fictional origin, I have gotten actual results (actual to me, anyway, and usually demonstrated to others by my speech/ideas/etc.) out of treating Malkav as if he had an independent existence (kinda along the lines of a spirit guide) and acting as if there really were such a thing as a Malkavian mode of thinking...call me deluded and bizarre and dysfunctional if you will, but the bottom line is it works for me and that I have worse than that still hidden in my hand :)
>The beauty of the laughter method is that it's not short term. The
>laughter effects the concept, little nasty, or whatever is being dealt
>with, permenantly. Heap big mojo! Big magick secret!
Chaos magick, eh? (at least that's the channel the laughter banishment got to me through)
>> I was afraid of heights so I learned to climb mountains,
>Ah! Now we're talking abuot real magick.
>Magick! Change in accordance with Will.
I tend to ignore my fears until a point or event comes that forces me to face it, forces me to do the very thing that I fear (never mind my previous discussions about even "forcing" situations involving choice, I'm not backpedaling, simply using a different mode of speech), and then once I hit that fateful moment it just melts or tears as easily as tissue paper - once that will kicks in and says "Hey. THis is stupid. You can't go on like this. DO it, you have the power!" it just... happens. But I can't conquer them consciously; I have to be "forced" into it.
> Do you know anyone who has become an actual god, the sort that can throw
[snippo] (? that seems like a strange thing to attribute to a god, but that's not the point you're making here anyway)
Why no, no I don't...
> doing it in your imagination, yes, but in actuallity no.
It comes down to a question of what is "actuality." If "actuality" is only the physical, then I am inclined to agree with you that this would be nigh impossible. However, there is also of course actuality to the mental/spiritual, and experiences there needn't be less valid than physical ones.
> If you truly were suddenly promoted to eternal life, (how boring) and
> incalculable power
well, hell, I don't know what I'd do. But this isn't what I meant by "experiencing" being a god, nor do I think it is what Rick meant. I don't know exactly what Rick meant, but I was referring more to 1)something short term - "experiencing" doesn't equal "turned into" 2)again, this mental vs. physical thing - I really don't think Rick meant he physically experienced being a god, not in the way you're thinking.
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